micaturtle: (Nyar?)
[personal profile] micaturtle
I meant to post this earlier this week, but I got really busy at work. IOWA ALLOWS GAY MARRIAGE NOW!
Iowa doesn't have a residency requirement for marriage licenses, and it's close enough to south dakota (about an 1/2 hour away) that Jenn ([livejournal.com profile] soliloquy) and I could go and get married if we wanted to. So, this brings up an interesting dilemma. Here it is :
I never really believed in marriage. I've always kinda seen it as something society imposes on people. However, that belief has slowly eroded since I met (and fell in love with) Jenn. This is not because of anything she has done. In fact, she is scared of marriage, due to a failed previous one (maybe I can talk her into writing a LJ entry this weekend expressing her exact feelings). No, this is because I feel a deep connection with Jenn. It goes deeper than "girlfriend" or "significant other" can express. Those terms just feel too temporary.
I also had a sort-of blasé attitude about gay marriage. I felt that it wasn't worth fighting about since I really didn't think a marriage certificate made much of a difference. However, now that I have the ability to marry Jenn, I think I might want to.

What do all of you on my F-list think about this? What are your thoughts on marriage? Those of you who are married, why did you do so? Are you happy? Help a nyar out! Give me your thoughts!

Date: 2009-04-10 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] animatrocor.livejournal.com
Honestly, I never thought marriage rly proved anything, esp love. If you rly love Jenn it is based on your feelings, not on a marriage certificate. If you are doubting it at awl, then nobody ish making you do it!

Just do what you feel is good for botha you. If you rly know each other rly well, live together etc. then you can still be commonlaws. Just don't believe you havesta get married just cuz you feel you need to!

Either way I am very happy for botha you! You sound rly happy together 8D

Date: 2009-04-14 04:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thanks so much, sango (corky? Coral? gah, I never know what 2 address u as)
It's true, love is based on feelings, not a marriage certificate.
I appreciate your two cents.
Also, Jenn was trying to read your reply while she was tipsy on saturday night and she was all like "Wow! This reads much easier when drunk!" hee hee. Yayz for silly spellinz! ;D
(deleted comment)

Date: 2009-04-14 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thanks for your imput, Kaz. I need to remember what you say about not making any impulsive decisions (as us mikey-types are wont to do)
You have a long term boyfriend (from what I recollect) do you think you will marry him someday? Why or why not?

Thanks!

Date: 2009-04-10 06:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] greenwillow27.livejournal.com
Marriage is really about planning a whole life together. It isn't really about being in love (though that is the #1 prerequisite) or liking the same movies and books and vacation places and stuff (though that's an important thing, too.)
It's about having the same values and the same life goals. Where do you want to live (country? city? France?) How do you want to live? Do you want kids? Where are you both going and where do you hope to be in 10, 20 years?
Like Kaz said, it's not something to do just cuz you can. There should be a lot of communication before any decisions happen.

Date: 2009-04-11 12:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soliloquy.livejournal.com
Thank you for this reply. I completely agree with it, and have already told Mica that we need to have one of these values and life goals situations to see how well they mesh, or don't for that matter to see what can or can't be compromised on.

I think I am going to make a list of these important questions and issues with Mica's help, because she and I have a lot to think about. :-)

I have to say, I wish I had the foresight to have this conversation with my ex-husband, Simon, before we even got engaged. It would have saved us both from a lot of frustration and problems that could have been so easily avoided.

Take care,
Jenn

Date: 2009-04-14 04:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thanks for the suggestion, GW. I am going to do this.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you get married? (sorry if it's too prying, then just tell me and I'll accept that as an answer)

Date: 2009-04-10 07:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pimpypantsmcgee.livejournal.com
Personally, I think marriage is a ridiculous institution. It basically is just like telling the government that "O HAI WE LIEK EACH OTHER A WHOLE LOT" and getting special treatment for it - as long as you don't ever change your mind. But it also creates a legal situation that is expensive and retarded to extricate oneself from should the situation ever change.

Basically, it's a friggin' cash cow for lawyers and provides people with new ways of fucking each other over legally.

Nothing is forever. People die, people change, shit happens. Sometimes, no matter how much you hope otherwise, things just don't work out.

I don't believe that marriage, either in the eyes of the law or in a spiritual sense, contributes much to society at this point in our development. As we know, not all relationships fit into a special little box like that.

For convenience's sake, the insurance perks and tax writeoffs might be kind of worth it, but that's something you have to decide.

If you're concerned about what might happen to you or her if something were to happen to either one of you, you might want to consider giving each other durable power of attorney. That's what me and my boyfriend are going to do.

Cuz we're never getting married :)

Date: 2009-04-14 05:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thanks for the input.
It's good to hear from both sides.
Your opinion kinda matches mine on marriage, but it's slowly been changing. *sai* I wish life wasnt so complicated.

Date: 2009-04-14 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pimpypantsmcgee.livejournal.com
Life doesn't have to be complicated! You don't have to shut yourself into a little box!

Durable power of attorney is the shit :)

Date: 2009-04-10 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aloneindarknes7.livejournal.com
It's a great thing that you have the opportunity to do such a thing now but honestly it's up to both you and Jenn. I mean, the factt hat you agree with my thinking that marriage doesn't really prove your love for someone else is great but then again it would be nice to be able to say that you have a wife. Still whatever you decide, it really just matters that you two are both happy with each other!~ <3

Date: 2009-04-14 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
thanks for your feedback, dudette. Your statement of "would be nice to be able to say that you have a wife." really sums it up for me. Thanks for helping me summarize

Date: 2009-04-10 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natsuko1978.livejournal.com
I'm not married, but I'd never get into a relationship where I couldn't *get* married. (NB: We've had gay "civil unions" for a few years over here and I was in support of gay marriage for a long time before, even though I'm supposedly hetero- and Christian. I believe that all people have the right to enshrine their committment to each other in law. Including polies, if it's a true commitment - though that isn't law here, yet.)

How does a marriage recognised by one state but not another work? 14 year old girls can get married in Oklahoma under some circumstances, but wouldn't their husbands be guilty of statutory rape (or worse) elsewhere? Could they ever go on holiday together to NYC (before she was 18)?

I think the idea of committing yourself, for life, to a partner in front of witnesses is a significant and important milestone in a relationship. Sometimes it doesn't work out (both my parents had failed marriages behind them when they married each other) but what's important is the ideal. I think there's a need for ceremonies for the big life events: birth, adoption, coming-of-age, dedicating yourself to a life-partner, death, etc.

A formal ceremony and a piece of legal paperwork says to *everyone* that you are dedicating yourself to another for life. That they are a part of you - a literal "Better Half". Two people going through life together, to help and support each other when times are bad - and it's saying that you don't think that there's anything so bad it could come between you. You can commit without the ceremony or paperwork, of course, and marriage is no guarantee -- but I like the idea of two people being sure enough of themselves and each other to satnd up and make it public.

I also think the legal rights that are part of marriage - tax breaks, next-of-kin/power-of-attorney status etc - are pretty damned important. But I have no idea if you'll have those rights if your own state won't acknowledge your marriage.

My first reaction was to give a big WHOOP! and a *HUG* to you for wanting to take this step - for this relationship meaning so much to you, you know? :D I wish you both all the best.

Date: 2009-04-11 12:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soliloquy.livejournal.com
What you wrote in your 3rd & 4th paragraphs was so beautiful. It represents so perfectly the "ideal" aspects of being married, and while reading it I had to confess to feeling a flutter of hope that I had dismissed as dead inside long ago.

Before my failed marriage that was exactly how I saw getting married. Even now, I believe in ceremony and tradition in most everything. I really do like the idea of having that paper and that formal commitment that truly says "Forever" between people.

Thank you for your support and words of encouragement. :-)

Take care,
Jenn

Date: 2009-04-11 01:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natsuko1978.livejournal.com
Sometimes it's right to let hope triumph over experience.

My parents (both on their second marriage, as I said) have been married 33 years and counting - and survived some very stressful times. :D My uncle has been married over 25 years - to his THIRD wife - in spite of the fact that he's become blind due to diabetes during that time. I don't see anything but death ending either of those marriages, not now.

In fact, I know a lot of people on their second marriages - who have all made it over the 20 year mark. I don't know what, exactly, that says, but it gives me hope that love can last and that people can grow old together - even today, with our divorce rates.

Only you and Mica can know whether you are both ready to take that step - and as others have said, a lifetime committment has to be about wanting the same things out of life and supporting each others' dreams, plans, hopes and goals. And supporting each other through your fears, dreads and all the unplanned crap life tends to throw at us.

I can understand you being nervous - even without a failed marriage behind you - but if you really think you have what it takes, I hope that you both have the love, courage and committment to do this if it still means something.

I, for one, will crack the virtual champagne for you, if and when you're both ready. :D *HUGS* As I said, I wish you *both* all the best and hope and pray that you *have* found a safe harbour in each other.

I just keep thinking of Frank Sinatra singing, "Love is wonderful, the second time around..."

Good luck.

Date: 2009-04-14 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
I totally agree that I would never get into a relationship where I couldn't GET married. Relationships are a long term thin IMO, and I'd have a VERY hard time having a "fling" with someone.

I like your idea about "ceremonies". It's very true.

Thanks for the well wishes! :D

Date: 2009-04-10 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morningstar4.livejournal.com
I totally agree with GW's comment above (and I really like [livejournal.com profile] natsuko1978's 3rd and 4th paragraph).

For me, marriage was about saying "I want to spend the rest of my life with you, no matter what horrendous things come our way. Together we can conquer anything. You're my best friend and the only person I can imagine going through all of life's ups and downs with." Maybe that's a little corny, but it's true. ;)

My personal opinion is that too many people jump into marriage because the idea is so nice, but they don't think about all the long term commitments that go into it. I would say to think long and hard about what you would be committing yourself to, and talk to Jenn very thoroughly about it too. Make sure you're both on the same page in all the respects GW mentioned above before considering it. And know in your heart that not only are you in love, but that if things get tough between you down the road, you're willing to do whatever it takes to fix them. Marriage is awesome, but it's also a lot of work, and it's not for everyone or every relationship. Good luck!

Date: 2009-04-14 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thanks so much for your input. I like your idea of what marriage is. :D It's not corny. It's true. It's a commitment and sometimes can be tough.
I plan on taking yours and GWs advice and going thru a list of things to make sure Jenn and I agree on.

If you don't mind me asking, what was your decision process when you decided to marry anthony?

Date: 2009-04-14 10:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morningstar4.livejournal.com
Hmmm...that's a tough question. I used to ask my mom how you know you're in love with someone. I mean, not just that you care about them and want them in your life, but that you're truly IN LOVE with someone. She used to tell me, "You just know." Ugh...that would frustrate the crap out of me. But then I met Anthony, and you know what? I knew. There was something about him, and I cannot explain it or tell you what it was, but I knew within the first week of being with him that he was special--that he was the one. There was a connection there, something that bonded us in a way I had never been bonded to anyone else.

Of course, there are a lot of other things that factor into it too, not just that. We lived together for about 4 and a half years before we got married (were together for 5) and in that time, you can really get to know a person inside and out. I guess the main things were our core values, our shared religious beliefs (which may not seem like it, but is important), shared interests, the ways we view the world and social issues around us, the fact that although we drove each other nuts once in a while, we were able to overlook the bad habits/differences/disagreements and look at the big picture.

A big one to look at is fights. Every couple has their disagreements. A healthy relationship argues over the little stupid stuff. "Did you leave this box of cereal open again??" Stuff like that. You argue, you might even exchange heated words, but in the end, you realize how stupid the argument was and you make up and move on. If you're having big arguments or fights, and you have them fairly often (especially if they're over more important issues) you may not be ready for a lifelong commitment.

I think it's really important for you to have a lot of things in common, at least when it comes to the important issues. And it's just as important to be willing to compromise or try to be understanding when differences DO arise. You also need to look at your potential spouse as a person--allow yourself to see their flaws, and really ask yourself if you can put up with them for the rest of your life.

Most of all, I think you need to really ask yourself honestly if 1)you can imagine spending the rest of your life with that one person, and 2)if you would be able to live without them.

I hope that helps.

Date: 2009-04-15 08:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jem0000000.livejournal.com
An addendum - sometimes little arguments over bigger issues are just as bad, if they're very important issues and you can't find a way to compromise. Over time, the little arguments will start to snowball.

But, silly arguments are good, definately. ^_^

Date: 2009-04-15 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
thankfully, both Jenn and I are the type who like to talk out our problems until we reach a solution.
Hee hee, Jenn and I have a running gag/arguement about the fact that Raph is her secret favorite ;)

Date: 2009-04-15 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
It helps somewhat. I still don't know what you mean by "you'll just know" about being in love. *sai* Maybe it's just a difference because I don't really tend to feel things fully like "normal" people do because of my aspergers.

The things you said in your 2nd and 4th paragraphs made a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

I don't fight a lot with Jenn, and when we fight, it's more of a discussion until we can reach a solution.

1)you can imagine spending the rest of your life with that one person

Yes I can. I imagine us growing old together :)

2)if you would be able to live without them.

Well, the thing is, if I ask myself honestly, I know I could live without Jenn. After all, I lived 26 years without her before I met her. However, I don't think I'd want to live without her. She makes my life so much more fulfilling, enjoyable, and awesome. I enjoy her company immensely and I never tire of her.

Date: 2009-04-10 10:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aussiegirl17.livejournal.com
Wow...I didn't know that--and that's my home state to boot! Yay for progress!!

Hmm...I kind of see both sides of it. I, myself, am not married nor do I intend to be. You make an interesting point about how you didn't really concern yourself with it because it wasn't possibility...now it is. So, I guess my question to you is: would you want to get married if it wasn't allowed? I guess what I'm getting at is are you wanting it because now you can have it?

As a side note--I personally don't believe a cermony or certificate is necessary to unite two people. I think it's more of a legality issue than anything, but that's just my take. Good luck with whatever you decide. ;D

Date: 2009-04-11 12:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soliloquy.livejournal.com
That is a very good question; I didn't even think of it! I will ask Mica because I am really curious to know what the answer is.

I have so many mixed feelings about getting married again. Mica is the only other person I've ever thought "hmm...maybe..." when it came to marriage since I got divorced years ago.

This is something that most definitely won't be entered into impulsively. From where I sit right now if it happens it will be measured in terms of years from now.

I really appreciate your input about this situation; it was very insightful. :-)

Take care,
Jenn

Date: 2009-04-11 12:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aussiegirl17.livejournal.com
You're very welcome. I wish the best to the both of you. :)

Date: 2009-04-14 06:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thank you for asking that question. I think I need some time to do some growing until my answer is "I'd want to marry Jenn even if it was illegal.
Thanks for your input, it's very helpful :D

Date: 2009-04-14 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
also, about iowa being your home state.. ACK! *hides from your driving* whar r u frumz in the hawkeye state?

Date: 2009-04-14 10:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aussiegirl17.livejournal.com
Lol! I learned to drive in NC so I don't think it would be fair to blame Iowa for it. ;p

I was born in Fort Dodge, IA--which is in the northwestern part of the state. I lived in a little dot of town called Monona, though--a bit more northwest of Fort Dodge.

And, you're very welcome for the input. ;D

Date: 2009-04-10 11:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moronqueen.livejournal.com
There are a lot of different levels, as there are to all things. I'll have been married for 6 years, come this August, and having that certificate and legal bond in addition to the emotional/spiritual one we had long before the paper signing offered a little more practical stability (we could afford the house together, health/dental insurance, etc), but I wouldn't say it was a make or break it kinda deal. There have been mornings I woke up wondering what the hell I got myself into, and others where I've just been immeasurably grateful to have him this close.

At the end of the day, though, it really depends on just how dedicated you two are to each other, and if you can stomach the worst along with the best in each other. Living a life with another is one of the hardest things a person can pursue, but if you're right for each other, it's also one of the most worthwhile.

For the record, we didn't have a huge celebration (though I'd like to have one 'cause, dude, who am I to turn down a party), or any kind of big ceremony. Nor was it a "goal" when we got together. It was very organic, which is the way I've always thought it should be.

On a broader scale, I was SO happy to hear about Iowa! Every deserves at least the option of whether or not to marry. It's not like anyone's getting tied down and forced to wed because of it. I figure it's a matter of equality more than anything. The love between two people is what should be embraced by society, be they of the same gender or not.

Date: 2009-04-14 06:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
thanks so much for your awesome input, HLM. It's cool to hear from someone who is married and has put up with so much in your marriage. :)

An organic celebration? *has this strange image of a uber hippie wedding with incense burning everywhere* What does that mean?

If it's not too personal, Why did you marry Jon? (for some odd reason, I thought your husband's name was Brett or Brent. Gah, brain fart) NEwayz, what was the decision process for you?

Yeah, I'm happy to hear about Iowa too. Maybe eventually it will be nationwide (altho I bet South Dakota will be one of the last states to adopt it. After all, we're the idiots who's government and SIGs keep trying to pass an abortion ban even though our people have voted it down twice in a public vote) It would be nice if people would just accept love. Dumb heads.

Date: 2009-04-14 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] moronqueen.livejournal.com
LOL Not quite as brain farty as you may think...Jon's online handle was Brent back in the day, and occasionally, I'll write about his friend Brett coming over. ;) There is a method to your madness!

My own brain must have been pretty tired when I was writing the organic part...I meant our relationship as a whole developed more organically than a lot of relationships I've watched grown. There are so many people out there who force marriage from the start that it's not even funny.

As for why we got married? It was actually pretty rushed...on a practical level, it was so we could qualify for an education loan for him, which is why it was rushed, but we were already as good as married, anyway. We had an apartment in both of our names, a joint bank account, had been living with each other for...what...3 years, at that point? It really was nothing more than a formality. It was a slow realization that it was going to happen...no fireworks or big romantic gestures. The ceremony itself was also very small and quick. Just his parents, my dad, step-mom, sister and a couple family friends I haven't seen since then. Performed by an ex-cop, who still had cuffs in his car from the class he was teaching beforehand. Hence, the handcuff ceremony in my icon. ;)

It would have been nice to have been able to have our entire families there, as well as friends, though. Almost six years later, and that still hasn't happened. *eyes the man* Stubborn, stubborn.

I do hope the gay marriage thing does go nationwide, for sure. And those stupid abortion bans...ugh. *facepalms* That's a whole 'nother can of worms. It's not like those of us for choice are about to force every woman who happens to get pregnant to get an abortion. Seriously.

Date: 2009-04-15 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Ahhh! THATS why I thought he was brent ;)

What does it mean for a relationship to develop "organically"? *has yet another strange mental image of HLM planting her hubby in the ground and watering him* o_0

That's such a cool wedding story! :D Married with handcuffs, yay.

Maybe for your 10th anniversiery you can have a big party or sumthin ;)

Thanks for giving me your perspective on marriage. I like your laid back style.

But didn't you know that all pro-choicers are evil people with fangs and horns who are out to eat fetuses (or is it fetuei?) hee hee. Again.. *smacks stoopid peoples*

Date: 2009-04-11 12:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mandy-nyar.livejournal.com
From what I've heard, Iowa wants to make it so only state residents can be married, because they don't want all these people flocking to their state just to get married (not sure why not, might be good for tourism..heh). So if you were to get married, you would have to do it soon before things change. It sounds like to me that Jenn isn't ready for that sort of thing quite yet. At the same time, I hope the country's views change on gay marriage and discrimination against people of different sexual orientations changes. So perhaps, eventually, it will become legal in this state.

Marriage isn't for everyone so I think perhaps figuring out if this is the right step or if this is even a needed step should occur first regardless of the laws. I don't think there's really a rush considering that society will change over time and come to accept this change. society sucks :P

Date: 2009-04-14 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Yeah, one would think they'd LIKE the tourism (after all, there's not much other reason to visit Iowa unless you wanna see a lot of CORN)
After thinking it over seriously, I'm not sure I'm completely ready for it either, so I think I will wait. If Iowa makes it so non-residents can't get married, then I guess that's not where we were supposed to get married (God's way of protecting me and Jenn from bad drivers)
I think I've asked you this before mandy, but if Jenn and I get married, you'll be a part of it, right? Nyar?

Date: 2009-04-14 08:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mandy-nyar.livejournal.com
exactly, it would be good for businesses, but obviously they probably meant that didn't want "those kind of people" overtaking their state :P

as for marriage, no rush, right? You have years and years ahead of you. I agree with GW about the life goals list. You have to be able to live with each other forevers! heh So figuring out if you can work through problems, finances (such as the argument I came between one day, something really important in marriage), having your own place to live, and other goals will help a lot. Also take some advice from Jenn, because she's been married and knows what kinds of problems or issues can come up down the road that you didn't even think about (being your first relationship and all). You have to also figure out what about each other you can live with and work through.

Yes, I'll be the best man/bride's maid/observer/streaker/whatever there. :P

Date: 2009-04-11 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mindy-mousie.livejournal.com
I married Mark because it was what both of us wanted to do and we had a lot of things in mind when we did it: legally, emotionally, financially, etc. It was for us and I can't say if just being together would give us that same feeling? It's a little weird to discuss - or I don't know how to put it in words. The moment we were married (in front of a judge), something changed inside of us. I was bound to him; he was bound to me. That is just *OUR* situation and our feelings on the matter. I am his wife. He is my husband. That just feels much, MUCH deeper to me than just "boyfriend, girlfriend". Could it be a society thing? Maybe.

Please take a lot of time necessary before marriage. It is a much bigger step than one might really think.

Date: 2009-04-14 06:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thank you *SO* much for your reply! Out of all the replies, I think yours is the closest to what I kinda was looking for in reply. That's so awesome what you and Mark share. Thanks so much for what you said. I will further consider it and I promise not to make any impulsive decisions (as us Mikey-types are wont to do :)

Thanks!

Date: 2009-04-15 10:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mindy-mousie.livejournal.com
Hey, I have a little Mikey in me too and I would be a hypocrite if I said our marriage wasn't a little "impulsive", hehe. But it's worked out.. somehow. :)

Date: 2009-04-11 09:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jem0000000.livejournal.com
A marriage is only as good as the sum of its parts. When you're working together, it's the best of both of you; when you're at odds, it's often the worst of both of you.

And, divorce is considerably messier than a break-up, because all those negative feelings get dragged out over months and sometimes years. So, be very, very careful that you think things through.

"Girlfriend" covers everything from "best friend" to "person I have dated a couple times, non-exclusively" to "person I am dating exclusively but not too terribly attached to" to "person I am dating exclusively and would be offended if you suggested cheating on" to "person I am living with" to "person I am living with and will still be living with in a year or two" to "person I am going to be living with for the foreseeable future" to "person I am going to be living with for the rest of my life". "Wife", at least, is less ambiguous.

I think several other people have raised some very important points, and I'm glad you two will be talking it over together. The "life goals" discussion is particularly important, IMO.

Um... everything else that I think might help you is somewhere on this page already. My first paragraph pretty much covers everything I feel about marriage-as-a-civil-union. Not knowing what faith you are or even if you have one, I'm not sure that anything I believe about marriage-as-a-spiritual-union would help. If you think it will, I can add that, tho.

Date: 2009-04-14 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Thanks for your input. Jenn and I are slowly having the "life goals" discussion. Your statement that WIFE is less ambigous makes a lot of sense to me. That's why it's hard to just have Jenn be my girlfriend, she means SO much more to me than that. I wish there was a term between girlfriend and Wife. *sai* Makes me realize why Jenn's sister, Tabatha, always corrects me when I call her fiance her boyfriend. Well, I want Jenn to be my Fiance, but stoopid society won't let us do that! *grumps*

I'd *LOVE* to hear your opinion on "marriage-as-a-spiritual-union"! It would be VERY helpful. Neither Jenn nor myself have an established religion, but niether of us are athiests or have far off beliefs. Please share if you would! :D

Date: 2009-04-12 01:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amandatello.livejournal.com
I don't know if it's my place to influence your decision what way or the other. But if you want my inner monologue that isn't as reluctantly kept as an inside voice :p

And I would like to be known as an honest speaking person...

Mica, I would like you to live a happy and loving life with the person you choose to live it with. My first thoughts was it was too early in a relationship.

BUT! Then again, in this current political transition, you don't know when the laws may change back on a whim :( So I can't advise or suggest either way. I'm sure you both will know when the time is right :)

All I do know is that I can't wait to meet both of you in July :D

Good Luck!

Date: 2009-04-14 07:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
Yay! Thanks for your reply, tello-nyar. You are one of my good friends, and I highly value your opinion. After serious consideration, I have come to agree with you that it is too early in the relationship. Maybe when we've been together 5 years or so.
My love for Jenn is not contigient on what laws dictate, so if they change the law, then I guess legal marriage is just not to be for us.
Thanks SO much for your reply. It means more to me than you could ever know. :D

Date: 2009-04-14 03:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lobster-bandito.livejournal.com
I'd like to get married someday, and that's largely because I'd like to have kids someday. When you bring children into the picture, it's not about you anymore--and marriage, for all its flaws, is currently the best way to ensure your kids are the most protected.

Date: 2009-04-14 07:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] micaturtle.livejournal.com
At least that's something Jenn and I sincerely agree on. We don't want to have kids. Cats and turtle(s) are enough for us. We don't need to be creating the next unibomber by messing up some poor kid's life. ;)

I was wondering, AC, do transgender people have problems with marriage? I mean, I would think once you got over the hurdle of the government changing your gender on your driver's liscence, then you wouldnt have too many issues with marriage, right?

NYAR!

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